Monitor Tests Forum

(11-17-2022 03:06 PM)Zodios Wrote: [ -> ]The big problem is that my eyes are highly sensitive to displays with 60hz (I have a headache and some dizziness from 60hz).

How can 60 Hz on an LCD panel possibly cause headaches and dizziness? If you want a higher refresh rate laptop, get a higher refresh rate laptop.

(11-17-2022 02:09 AM)Squash Wrote: [ -> ]I bought a Sonos Arc which I hooked up to my TV's arc hdmi port. From my tests it will not pass through 5.1 audio. The Sonos app shows only Stereo. So I was trying to use CRU to add 5.1 to the EDID, but so far without success.

Did you configure the speakers for 5.1 in the Windows sound control panel?

(11-16-2022 06:09 PM)MissTheRage Wrote: [ -> ]hi everyone, i have a few questions i hope i can get answers because i will be very happy if i succeed. My system is notebook but I connect it to the monitor and use it. My main monitor is ASUS VS247 1920x1080 60hz monitor. I use the internal screen of the notebook as the second screen, and it is 144hz. I wanted to watch some youtube videos and increase the hz value of my main monitor, but no matter what I did, it didn't work. For example, I never had the "Automatic LCD Standard" option. I already tried to change the speed from the nvidia resolution change settings, but the result was that the screen went black. Don't worry, I know that the main monitor works with the notebook's external video card, I'm sure of it. can you please help me? can i increase my hz?

What exactly did you try? What refresh rates did you try? How is the monitor connected?

(10-21-2022 10:24 AM)mdrejhon Wrote: [ -> ]Now My Suggestions

1. I recommend adjusting the release notes to indicate there are latency benefits for certain laggy-buffering displays like certain OLED and DLPs. It also even reduces non-strobed LCD latency too with certain sync technologies, especially if you're using Scanline Sync with the tearline adjusted to near bottom of VBI so it's a "end-of-VBI Present()" replacing VSYNC ON's "beginning-of-VBI Present()".

2. I recommend renaming "Vertical Total Calculator" to "Vertical Total Calculator (QFT)" to make sure QFT is part of it. Ideally it should have said "Quick Frame Transport" because it is universal, not just for strobing, but I'd settle for just appending "(QFT)" to make sure users get that assocation. Instead of something obscure like "Vertical Total Calculator".

Searching Google, "Quick Frame Transport" is widely the dominant name for this, especially outside engineer circles, with the most Google search results, and it would be good to keep it in sync with existing Internet information.

Update!

One fantastic thing about ToastyX' new "Vertical Total Calculator (QFT)" feature is that it's a method of creating custom fixed-Hz modes for a VRR panel from a non-VRR GPU (e.g. older GPUs, Intel GPUs, etc)

For example, for a 120Hz VRR display, ToastyX can create a 96Hz fixed-Hz mode that looks exactly like a permanent 96fps framerate cap on a 120Hz FreeSync VRR signal.

The topology of both signals is actually identical, and the display will usually sync to a fixed-Hz signal created via Vertical Total Calculator on the working VRRmax.

It's almost like an EDID-based frame rate cap on a VRR signal -- except it's a fixed-Hz signal that can work from any non-VRR GPU. Quite useful for special applications, like connecting laptops and HTPCs to some VRR TVs.

Instructions.

1. Enable VRR setting on your television.
2. Make sure a picture is displayed at max Hz
3. Use ToastyX to create the non-VRR fixed-Hz mode
......Start from your working max-Hz mode.
......Select the setting "Vertical Total Calculator (QFT)"
......Modify the refresh rate to any refresh rate within the VRR range of your TV
......Save and test!

This will usually work (even on non-VRR GPUs, such as Intel), provided the television is correctly VESA Adaptive Sync (resizeable back porch, the same method as Vertical Total Calculator), allowing you to do custom fixed-Hz refresh rates on your TV where it would otherwise never support! The topology of a fixed-Hz QFT signal is surprisingly similar to a perfectly framerate-capped VRR signal. Most scalers/tcons treat this fine, which is also a major scientific explanation why QFT more often successfully works on VRR-compatible panels!

Several useful purposes: Useful for 48fps HFR videos, 50fps emulator, 100fps emulator, 57.1Hz arcade, 96fps double-strobe BFI simulating 35mm projector, nonstandard software frame rates, synchronization with virtual reality mirroring (e.g. 90fps 90Hz chromecast-style mirroring from headset to TV) etc.

Several hundred of fans (through different channels) absolutely adore the new Vertical Total Calculator. One of us achieved a 13ms latency reduction on a non-strobed display. Thank you!

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(11-18-2022 11:07 PM)ToastyX Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-17-2022 03:06 PM)Zodios Wrote: [ -> ]The big problem is that my eyes are highly sensitive to displays with 60hz (I have a headache and some dizziness from 60hz).

How can 60 Hz on an LCD panel possibly cause headaches and dizziness? If you want a higher refresh rate laptop, get a higher refresh rate laptop.

Zodios is correct.

Many of us have the problem, which is part of why Blur Busters exists, from the motion blur headaches of sample-and-hold 60Hz.

Many of us have motion blur headaches from the motion blur of 60Hz.

It's not all about flicker, but also from motion blur and/or sensitivity to 60Hz stutter (on OLED, 60Hz can still "stutter", since stutter is directly tied to flicker fusion threshold.
- Sensitivity to display motion blur; and/or
- Sensitivity to stutter of 60Hz

Remember, stutter and persistence blur is exactly the same thing (sample and hold effect) -- see variable speed animation demo http://www.testufo.com/eyetracking#speed=-1 and stare the 2nd UFO for at least 30 seconds.

View the 2nd UFO of this TestUFO animation for 30 seconds on both 120Hz+ LCD and 120Hz+ OLED
- On LCD, the stutter blends to blur at about 50fps
- On OLED, the stutter blends to blur at about 75fps.

Scientifically it is the same principle as a vibrating music string.
Slow music string = visibly vibrates
Fast music string = blends to blur

Same for edge-flicker of low frame rate stutter stutter.
Slow sample and hold = visible stutter (edge flicker)
Fast sample and hold = blends to blur (edge blur)

Slow GtG pixel response will soften stutter, adjusting the framerate threshold where stutter blends to blur. Once GtG is zeroed out, your regular-stutter-blends-to-blur threshold is roughly equal to your flicker fusion threshold.

Regardless of whether your headache/nausea/eyestrain/motionsickness (or all) is caused by stutter or blur, 60Hz is a major ergonomic problem for SOME of us.

/25 Citations In Research Papers
/Namesake Toot Toot
/Chief BLUR BUSTER Exits The Room

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(11-18-2022 11:46 PM)mdrejhon Wrote: [ -> ]Many of us have the problem, which is part of why Blur Busters exists, from the motion blur headaches of sample-and-hold 60Hz.

Many of us have motion blur headaches from the motion blur of 60Hz.

If that were the case, then movies, TV shows, YouTube videos, and low frame rate games would cause headaches, and changing the refresh rate won't help with those. Regardless, if someone needs a high refresh rate laptop, then they should get a high refresh rate laptop.

(11-18-2022 11:46 PM)mdrejhon Wrote: [ -> ]1. I recommend adjusting the release notes to indicate there are latency benefits for certain laggy-buffering displays like certain OLED and DLPs. It also even reduces non-strobed LCD latency too with certain sync technologies, especially if you're using Scanline Sync with the tearline adjusted to near bottom of VBI so it's a "end-of-VBI Present()" replacing VSYNC ON's "beginning-of-VBI Present()".

This is too complex of a topic for release notes that many people don't bother reading. I can include a link if you have one. QFT wouldn't reduce latency with vsync off or FreeSync/G-SYNC on with the default range, which are the two most common modes that gamers use. If present happens at the beginning of VBI with vsync on, then QFT would actually increase latency because the start of the frame output would be delayed. Present would need to happen at the sync pulse or near the end of VBI to decrease latency, as you described with scanline sync.

(11-18-2022 11:46 PM)mdrejhon Wrote: [ -> ]2. I recommend renaming "Vertical Total Calculator" to "Vertical Total Calculator (QFT)" to make sure QFT is part of it. Ideally it should have said "Quick Frame Transport" because it is universal, not just for strobing, but I'd settle for just appending "(QFT)" to make sure users get that assocation. Instead of something obscure like "Vertical Total Calculator".

I feel like QFT is the more obscure term, but I might change it to "QFT calculator (back porch)" so I can add "QFT calculator (front porch)" as an option, although I'm not sure which would be more useful.

(11-19-2022 02:01 AM)ToastyX Wrote: [ -> ]If that were the case, then movies, TV shows, YouTube videos, and low frame rate games would cause headaches

Actually, to correct an old assumption, yes they do cause headaches for some.

Some of us can't go to the cinema nor watch a big screen TV (except from distance or smaller screens), while some of them always want to turn on interpolation to fix the blur (I prefer Hollywood 24fps personally but I can understand these people). Monitors and VR involve much bigger FOV than distant televisions across a room, and as displays get bigger, motion blur bothers more people.

There are many mitigation measures that people do to compensate, and it's important for that person to adjust.

You are correct they should upgrade the laptop LCD to reduce motion blur, your suggestion was correct. I was simply adding information.

(11-19-2022 02:01 AM)ToastyX Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-18-2022 11:46 PM)mdrejhon Wrote: [ -> ]1. I recommend adjusting the release notes to indicate there are latency benefits for certain laggy-buffering displays like certain OLED and DLPs. It also even reduces non-strobed LCD latency too with certain sync technologies, especially if you're using Scanline Sync with the tearline adjusted to near bottom of VBI so it's a "end-of-VBI Present()" replacing VSYNC ON's "beginning-of-VBI Present()".

This is too complex of a topic for release notes that many people don't bother reading. I can include a link if you have one. QFT wouldn't reduce latency with vsync off or FreeSync/G-SYNC on with the default range, which are the two most common modes that gamers use. If present happens at the beginning of VBI with vsync on, then QFT would actually increase latency because the start of the frame output would be delayed. Present would need to happen at the sync pulse or near the end of VBI to decrease latency, as you described with scanline sync.

You misunderstood, I didn't mean verbatim...

Just add one sentence such as "In addition, there are also latency reductions for many specific kinds of displays".

(11-18-2022 11:46 PM)mdrejhon Wrote: [ -> ]2. I recommend renaming "Vertical Total Calculator" to "Vertical Total Calculator (QFT)" to make sure QFT is part of it. Ideally it should have said "Quick Frame Transport" because it is universal, not just for strobing, but I'd settle for just appending "(QFT)" to make sure users get that assocation. Instead of something obscure like "Vertical Total Calculator".

I feel like QFT is the more obscure term, but I might change it to "QFT calculator (back porch)" so I can add "QFT calculator (front porch)" as an option, although I'm not sure which would be more useful.
[/quote]
Putting aside what is more common;
I think just append a " (QFT)" to the end of Vertical Total Calculator and call it a day.

Basically "Vertical Total Calculator (QFT)"

We spent a lot of time popularizing QFT in certain venues, and there's been much more buzz about QFT in some of my discord channels as well as certain venues, and going to add some articles about QFT in 2023...

We've all found back porch to be more reliable, since that's the method of VRR for temporally spacing apart refresh cycles. QFT looks essentially just like a fixed-Hz version of a VRR signal.

(11-19-2022 02:01 AM)ToastyX Wrote: [ -> ]QFT wouldn't reduce latency with vsync off

Actually, not quite true.

You're correct for realtime-scanout displays (e.g. CRTs and unstrobed esports LCDs)

But QFT can reduce VSYNC OFF latency on global refresh displays and displays using full-refresh pre-processing.

Some "global refresh" displays (most DLP, certain OLED, some plasmas, and also strobed LCD) has lower latency with VSYNC OFF via QFT because the display gets the full framebuffer sooner, allowing frame visibility sooner regardless of the PC sync technology.

By delivering a complete refresh cycle (including all of its VSYNC OFF frameslices) from GPU to display's buffer sooner, the display can do global refresh processing sooner
- splitting apart the refresh cycle into subfields for DLP temporal dithering
- laggy OLED HDR processing via "find-brightest-pixel" algorithms for realtime panel APL balancing
- displays that only starts global processing after arrival of last pixel
- being able to flash the strobe backlight earlier
- etc.

Yes lag reduced, VSYNC OFF.
Yes lag reduced, without having RTSS installed.

This is a plug and play zero-PC-configure latency reduction. You don't even need RTSS Scanline Sync for this latency reduction (even though it will bring additional latency benefits). I have begun to talk to manufacturers to build in QFT EDIDs on certain displays, because it actually works. The laggy full-framebuffering OLED displays suddenly reduce lag, for example. Several OLEDs have to framebuffer fully because they can't displays all pixels at maximum brightness if it's a full screen white, so they have to buffer the entire refresh cycle to find out how brightly to display the picture, to avoid glitching or artifacting. In an esports mode, OLEDs switch to SDR mode instead of HDR, to guarantee they can show the same nits regardless of how many RGB(255,255,255) pixels there are onscreen, but in HDR modes and higher brightness OLEDs, they have to buffer to decide how brightly to display the refresh cycle, to prevent total-power overload conditions... And guess what? OLED is going to boom soon...

In fact, some 120Hz OLEDs can accept QFT at 1/240sec (even though the OLED panel can't do 240Hz), because the scaler is fast enough to buffer the frame, allowing global frame processing to occur sooner.

I have access to thousands of displays -- and QFT reduces lag on more displays than you think. How many displays do you have access to....

I daresay, you greatly underrate this revolutionary Vertical Total Calculator.

Your brilliant work that does more than you think, reducing VSYNC OFF latency on several OLEDs without RTSS installed at all

(11-19-2022 03:09 AM)mdrejhon Wrote: [ -> ]There are many mitigation measures that people do to compensate, and it's important for that person to adjust.

My point is increasing the refresh rate wouldn't mitigate any of that because the frame rate would still be low. In fact, changing the refresh rate can actually increase judder if it's not a multiple of the frame rate. It would only help in games where you can make the frame rate synchronize with the refresh rate. Increasing the refresh rate for desktop use only has minor improvements like smoother mouse movement and smoother scrolling. If someone gets headaches from general computer use, the refresh rate is not likely the cause.

(11-19-2022 03:09 AM)mdrejhon Wrote: [ -> ]You're correct for realtime-scanout displays (e.g. CRTs and unstrobed esports LCDs)

But QFT can reduce VSYNC OFF latency on global refresh displays and displays using full-refresh pre-processing.

Some "global refresh" displays (most DLP, certain OLED, some plasmas, and also strobed LCD) has lower latency with VSYNC OFF via QFT because the display gets the full framebuffer sooner, allowing frame visibility sooner regardless of the PC sync technology.

I'm aware that global refresh displays exist, but they are such a small minority, and they tend to be TVs with additional processing lag, so anyone that cares about lag shouldn't be using them. The vast majority of monitors and TVs don't do global refresh.

Strobed LCD is a different issue. The whole point of using QFT with strobing is to finish the scanout faster so there's more time for the pixels to change before the backlight strobes, which reduces crosstalk. QFT wouldn't reduce lag with strobing unless you make the backlight strobe sooner, but then that would negate the crosstalk reduction.

(11-19-2022 03:09 AM)mdrejhon Wrote: [ -> ]I have access to thousands of displays -- and QFT reduces lag on more displays than you think. How many displays do you have access to....

I'd like to know more about which displays do global refresh. The problem is most sites don't test lag properly or mention the scanout method, so I don't have enough information. For instance, RTINGS lag measurements include vsync lag measured in the center of the screen, so it's usually higher than the actual lag, and I don't see them talking about the scanout method. Other sites used inconsistently updating timers with wildly inaccurate results. Back when I tested displays, I always made sure to use a method that lets me see where the screen is refreshing to get more accurate measurements (vsynced vertical bars was the best method I found). All of the displays I tested did a normal scanout, even the ones that delayed frames. OLED is newer tech, so I don't know much about them. The part about OLED HDR needing the full frame is new information to me.

(11-18-2022 11:09 PM)ToastyX Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-16-2022 06:09 PM)MissTheRage Wrote: [ -> ]hi everyone, i have a few questions i hope i can get answers because i will be very happy if i succeed. My system is notebook but I connect it to the monitor and use it. My main monitor is ASUS VS247 1920x1080 60hz monitor. I use the internal screen of the notebook as the second screen, and it is 144hz. I wanted to watch some youtube videos and increase the hz value of my main monitor, but no matter what I did, it didn't work. For example, I never had the "Automatic LCD Standard" option. I already tried to change the speed from the nvidia resolution change settings, but the result was that the screen went black. Don't worry, I know that the main monitor works with the notebook's external video card, I'm sure of it. can you please help me? can i increase my hz?

What exactly did you try? What refresh rates did you try? How is the monitor connected?

my monitor is connected to the monitor as dvi from the hdmi output on the back of the laptop. all settings the same. It only shows 65hz on windows.

Hello,

I have the following setup Nvidia 3070 -> Samsung TV - > eARC - > Sony 5.1 HtRT-40. I had enabled the 5.1 surround in LPCM and enable the 5.1 speakers too.

But the problem is only FL and FR works when I test using windows. The other channels are no audio.

Thanks for the help and making thing wonderful software.

(11-19-2022 07:05 PM)aruldd Wrote: [ -> ]I have the following setup Nvidia 3070 -> Samsung TV - > eARC - > Sony 5.1 HtRT-40. I had enabled the 5.1 surround in LPCM and enable the 5.1 speakers too.

But the problem is only FL and FR works when I test using windows. The other channels are no audio.

Clearly something in the chain isn't supporting 5.1 passthrough. It sounds like the TV might be using ARC instead of eARC. Maybe there's a setting in the TV's menus that needs to be changed to enable eARC.