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Custom Resolution Utility (CRU)
11-19-2022, 08:06 PM
Post: #7061
RE: Custom Resolution Utility (CRU)
(11-19-2022 05:21 PM)MissTheRage Wrote:  my monitor is connected to the monitor as dvi from the hdmi output on the back of the laptop. all settings the same. It only shows 65hz on windows.
You need to read the first post.
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11-19-2022, 08:17 PM
Post: #7062
RE: Custom Resolution Utility (CRU)
(11-19-2022 08:06 PM)ToastyX Wrote:  
(11-19-2022 07:05 PM)aruldd Wrote:  I have the following setup Nvidia 3070 -> Samsung TV - > eARC - > Sony 5.1 HtRT-40. I had enabled the 5.1 surround in LPCM and enable the 5.1 speakers too.

But the problem is only FL and FR works when I test using windows. The other channels are no audio.
Clearly something in the chain isn't supporting 5.1 passthrough. It sounds like the TV might be using ARC instead of eARC. Maybe there's a setting in the TV's menus that needs to be changed to enable eARC.

The TV's apps are working in 5.1 but not the PC. I tried restarting the driver, rebooting the PC, using dolby Atmos etc., Nothing worked.
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11-20-2022, 03:27 AM
Post: #7063
RE: Custom Resolution Utility (CRU)
(11-18-2022 11:07 PM)ToastyX Wrote:  
(11-17-2022 02:09 AM)Squash Wrote:  I bought a Sonos Arc which I hooked up to my TV's arc hdmi port. From my tests it will not pass through 5.1 audio. The Sonos app shows only Stereo. So I was trying to use CRU to add 5.1 to the EDID, but so far without success.
Did you configure the speakers for 5.1 in the Windows sound control panel?

In the audio devices properties in the control panel it shows 2 channels, so nothing to configure.

I tried CRU again today from scratch. I added AC3 and LPCM 5.1 audio and a speaker setup data block for 5.1. Something changed because the name shown in audio devices changed from PanasonicTV0 to Digital Audio (HDMI), but still 2 channels.
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11-22-2022, 05:26 PM
Post: #7064
RE: Custom Resolution Utility (CRU)
Hope someone can help me. I have a Club3D CSV-7220 MST HUB that converts my single 4K-capable DP 1.2 port to DP+HDMI. I have an optical HDMI 2.1 cable, but recently the 60Hz capability stopped working and it only offers 30Hz. I have a feeling CRU could force it but I'm at a point with my trial and error that I'm getting used to the 30Hz.

I had to create a custom resolution in AMD software since Day 1 and that used to work. Now I can't even create this as it says not supported.

I tried and failed:
- Changing from 4K TV to 4K monitor (that works at 60 via DP just fine through the same MST HUB).
- Tried other HDMI cables (but I guess they could be just old standard)
- Other computer (I'm not sure if my old laptop can output 4K60 at all)
- Firmware upgrade the tv
- AMD Driver update
- Restoring Windows11 partition to a backup to when it was okay (no joy - could this mean something broke on a hardware level?)
- Contacting Club3D support (they asked for dxdiag data and blamed the cable)

One thing I notice is that the pixel clock seems to be limited to 300 whereas it would need to be closer to 600 to work no? Can I unlock it, given that the specs of the cable, displays, the Club3D device all support it? Something just makes the proper values not discoverable or recognizable by the software for some reason.

Also, isn't the point of CRU to create potentially unsupported combinations to see if they work? Hence the 15s countdown in Windows that reverts stuff? The TV is capable of telling me "unsupported format" but I can hardly ever reach that message.

VGA: MSI R9 390
TV: Philips 55PUS9206 (120Hz)
Monitor: ASUS ProArt PA279CV
Cable: Qualtek HDMI 2.1 Active Optical 15M
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11-22-2022, 07:44 PM
Post: #7065
RE: Custom Resolution Utility (CRU)
(11-22-2022 05:26 PM)Firsh Wrote:  Hope someone can help me. I have a Club3D CSV-7220 MST HUB that converts my single 4K-capable DP 1.2 port to DP+HDMI. I have an optical HDMI 2.1 cable, but recently the 60Hz capability stopped working and it only offers 30Hz. I have a feeling CRU could force it but I'm at a point with my trial and error that I'm getting used to the 30Hz.

I had to create a custom resolution in AMD software since Day 1 and that used to work. Now I can't even create this as it says not supported.

I tried and failed:
- Changing from 4K TV to 4K monitor (that works at 60 via DP just fine through the same MST HUB).
- Tried other HDMI cables (but I guess they could be just old standard)
- Other computer (I'm not sure if my old laptop can output 4K60 at all)
- Firmware upgrade the tv
- AMD Driver update
- Restoring Windows11 partition to a backup to when it was okay (no joy - could this mean something broke on a hardware level?)
- Contacting Club3D support (they asked for dxdiag data and blamed the cable)

One thing I notice is that the pixel clock seems to be limited to 300 whereas it would need to be closer to 600 to work no? Can I unlock it, given that the specs of the cable, displays, the Club3D device all support it? Something just makes the proper values not discoverable or recognizable by the software for some reason.

Also, isn't the point of CRU to create potentially unsupported combinations to see if they work? Hence the 15s countdown in Windows that reverts stuff? The TV is capable of telling me "unsupported format" but I can hardly ever reach that message.
CRU can't force anything if there's a driver or hardware limitation involved. CRU can only add resolutions within the available bandwidth, and the TV should already define the correct resolutions, so there would be nothing to change.

Something is causing the bandwidth to be limited. Use CRU to export the EDID for the TV to a file and attach it here so I can make sure the TV is reporting the correct information.

You mentioned testing the PA279CV with DP but not HDMI. The PA279CV has HDMI 2.0. The easiest test would be to see if the PA279CV can get 3840x2160 @ 60 Hz with HDMI through the hub.

Also, are you using one display at a time? The R9 390 only has DisplayPort 1.2, so it doesn't have enough bandwidth to drive two displays at 3840x2160 @ 60 Hz through one port without reducing the chroma to YCbCr 4:2:0, which I'm not sure if the R9 390 supports through DisplayPort.
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11-22-2022, 08:52 PM
Post: #7066
RE: Custom Resolution Utility (CRU)
(11-22-2022 07:44 PM)ToastyX Wrote:  
(11-22-2022 05:26 PM)Firsh Wrote:  Hope someone can help me. I have a Club3D CSV-7220 MST HUB that converts my single 4K-capable DP 1.2 port to DP+HDMI. I have an optical HDMI 2.1 cable, but recently the 60Hz capability stopped working and it only offers 30Hz. I have a feeling CRU could force it but I'm at a point with my trial and error that I'm getting used to the 30Hz.

I had to create a custom resolution in AMD software since Day 1 and that used to work. Now I can't even create this as it says not supported.

I tried and failed:
- Changing from 4K TV to 4K monitor (that works at 60 via DP just fine through the same MST HUB).
- Tried other HDMI cables (but I guess they could be just old standard)
- Other computer (I'm not sure if my old laptop can output 4K60 at all)
- Firmware upgrade the tv
- AMD Driver update
- Restoring Windows11 partition to a backup to when it was okay (no joy - could this mean something broke on a hardware level?)
- Contacting Club3D support (they asked for dxdiag data and blamed the cable)

One thing I notice is that the pixel clock seems to be limited to 300 whereas it would need to be closer to 600 to work no? Can I unlock it, given that the specs of the cable, displays, the Club3D device all support it? Something just makes the proper values not discoverable or recognizable by the software for some reason.

Also, isn't the point of CRU to create potentially unsupported combinations to see if they work? Hence the 15s countdown in Windows that reverts stuff? The TV is capable of telling me "unsupported format" but I can hardly ever reach that message.
CRU can't force anything if there's a driver or hardware limitation involved. CRU can only add resolutions within the available bandwidth, and the TV should already define the correct resolutions, so there would be nothing to change.

Something is causing the bandwidth to be limited. Use CRU to export the EDID for the TV to a file and attach it here so I can make sure the TV is reporting the correct information.

You mentioned testing the PA279CV with DP but not HDMI. The PA279CV has HDMI 2.0. The easiest test would be to see if the PA279CV can get 3840x2160 @ 60 Hz with HDMI through the hub.

Also, are you using one display at a time? The R9 390 only has DisplayPort 1.2, so it doesn't have enough bandwidth to drive two displays at 3840x2160 @ 60 Hz through one port without reducing the chroma to YCbCr 4:2:0, which I'm not sure if the R9 390 supports through DisplayPort.

Yes only 1 at a time I'm aware of that limitation. The MST HUB is just there to let me toggle between the two instead of physically dis/connecting the cables daily.

Monitor at 4K60 DP is my daily driver. I just tried with the same cable I use for the TV and it also gets limited to 30Hz. So DP -> Club3D CSV-7220 -> HDMI -> either TV or Monitor: locked to 30Hz.

Attached the file. Could the TV's reporting "get lost" because of the active adapter? If it's incorrect, can the EDID be customized?


Attached File(s)
.bin  philips-tv.bin (Size: 256 bytes / Downloads: 10)
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11-22-2022, 09:22 PM (Last edited: 11-22-2022, 10:17 PM by mdrejhon)
Post: #7067
RE: Custom Resolution Utility (CRU)
(11-19-2022 04:59 AM)ToastyX Wrote:  
(11-19-2022 03:09 AM)mdrejhon Wrote:  There are many mitigation measures that people do to compensate, and it's important for that person to adjust.
My point is increasing the refresh rate wouldn't mitigate any of that because the frame rate would still be low. In fact, changing the refresh rate can actually increase judder if it's not a multiple of the frame rate.
That's definitely true, increasing refresh rate can cause problems with certain content -- not all content, software,

(11-19-2022 04:59 AM)ToastyX Wrote:  Increasing the refresh rate for desktop use only has minor improvements like smoother mouse movement and smoother scrolling. If someone gets headaches from general computer use, the refresh rate is not likely the cause.
I know, but it definitely exists.

There are literally over 100 niche ergonomic causes of display discomfort of all kinds (eyestrain and/or nausea and/or motionsickness and/or headaches) other than PWM, blue light, etc.

We're already experts at diagnosing many peoples' headaches. I also now fly in-person to teach classrooms (e.g. photo at bottom of services.blurbusters.com ...)

Also, you need geometrics (60Hz -> 144Hz -> 360Hz -> 1000Hz) to see major improvements in things like scrolling. For average users, a 4x geometric is recommended. Doubling Hz halves motion blur, assuming GtG=0 and that's why Blur Busters is a huge fan of geometric refresh rate upgrades (~2x-4x), especially on OLED which more linearly follows Blur Busters Law.

(11-19-2022 04:59 AM)ToastyX Wrote:  I'm aware that global refresh displays exist, but they are such a small minority, and they tend to be TVs with additional processing lag, so anyone that cares about lag shouldn't be using them. The vast majority of monitors and TVs don't do global refresh.
Don't forget that the panel does not have to be global refresh, it can simply be one of the thousands of LCD and OLED displays that needs to pre-buffer the full refresh cycle first before processing. All of those thousands of LCD and OLED displays gets lag reductions with QFT, because of pre-buffering, even if the panel is not global refresh.

To clarify, definitions:

Real-time scanout: A display that can accept a pixel row from the input, and refresh that pixel row directly to the panel in real time. Often a rolling-window of a few scanlines is used, for things like image scaling (bilinear/bicubic/etc) due to algorithmic need to know the pixel row(s) above/below.

Full refresh cycle buffering before scanout: A display that, for some purpose, needs to buffer the whole refresh cycle from the signal input, BEFORE it scans out to the panel (even if the panel is not global refresh). Some algorithms are much easier to do with global buffering, such as many HDR algorithms, and many kinds of OLED-processing algorithms.

(11-19-2022 04:59 AM)ToastyX Wrote:  Strobed LCD is a different issue. The whole point of using QFT with strobing is to finish the scanout faster so there's more time for the pixels to change before the backlight strobes, which reduces crosstalk. QFT wouldn't reduce lag with strobing unless you make the backlight strobe sooner, but then that would negate the crosstalk reduction.
No, it does not negate the crosstalk reduction.

You still get crosstalk reductions AND ability to strobe sooner, because of laws of physics. In a 1ms VBI between a 15.7ms scanout, you may have 0ms before/after a 1ms pulse. In a 12.9ms VBI between a 4.2ms scanout, you have 4.35ms before AND after the 1ms pulse. So 4.35ms lag reduction AND crosstalk-free 60Hz strobing. If the GtG is sufficiently fast, you can even push the strobe pulse slightly sooner, e.g. 5.35ms or 6.35ms lag reduction, and still stay zero crosstalk, if the GtG curve is still below human visibility threshold and the curve is still completely inside the VBI time.*
*Note: There's a phase offset depending on GtG lag behavior, however once GtG transition is centered in the VBI (so that the leading/trailing edge is invisibilized equally at both ends), you now have room to slide the curve forward/back. For custom QFT-calibrated Pure XP Custom modes (at the 60-100Hz territory), XG2431 is the first zero-crosstalk IPS LCD's on the market that's not a VR LCD.

If you are unaware, ViewSonic paid me to do one of the world's most perfect strobe tunings (beating ULMB, beating LightBoost), on the XG2431.

[Image: D3D78197-EE56-404A-8B63-50552F91207C-740x555.jpeg]

If you're currently unaware, I have already done paid consulting services for multiple manufacturers so I've gained some immense knowledge about these matters...

(11-19-2022 04:59 AM)ToastyX Wrote:  I'd like to know more about which displays do global refresh. The problem is most sites don't test lag properly or mention the scanout method, so I don't have enough information. For instance, RTINGS lag measurements include vsync lag measured in the center of the screen, so it's usually higher than the actual lag, and I don't see them talking about the scanout method.
This is true, we need more accurate lag testing for the whole screen surface.

(11-19-2022 04:59 AM)ToastyX Wrote:  IThe part about all display (including LCD) HDR needing the full frame is new information to me.
Fixed that for you.

There's many reasons:
- Remember local dimming backlights often need refresh-cycle prebuffering logic too.
- Some LCDs switch between realtime scanout mode and buffered-mode depending on the monitor settings configured into the monitor menus.

In addition, some LCDs are scanrate-multisync and other LCDs are fixed-scanrate (which is why they have high 60Hz latency).
You still have VSYNC OFF latency reductions at QFT 60Hz on many 240Hz LCD panels, with strobing=OFF!

Note: Alternating grey bars = relative frameslice height example (not exact count of frameslices).

As a very small example, all BenQ 240Hz (XL254*), Acer XB252, ViewSonic XG270, and many dozens others, are fixed-scanrate panels and buffers sub-240Hz refresh cycles, and they all have lag reductions during QFT with lower numbers than RTINGS numbers, when tested with QFT.
[Image: 240hz-fixed-scanrate-scaler-at-60hz-613x690.png]

[Image: 240hz-flexible-scanrate-scaler-at-60hz-631x690.png]

[Image: 240hz-quick-frame-transport-60hz-631x690.png]

Until recently, most 240Hz panels were fixed-horizontal-scanrate. Fixed scanrate panels require buffering most of the slow-scanning refresh cycle signal before scanning-out the panel. So they have lag reductions with QFT.

And we haven't entered the territory, that until recently, there was not a single high-Hz big-brand-name 1440p panel with horizontal scanrate multisync capability. Your early 1440p monitor had to buffer the whole refresh cycle before fast-scanout. In fact, almost all NVIDIA native GSYNC panels were fixed-horizontal-scanrate (at first), but unfortunately didn't support custom refresh rates until a few generations ahead, and then when they did, many legacy panels are apparently already QFT-compatible (even lag reductions during VSYNC OFF, strobing OFF, and without needing RTSS)

BTW, we may be launching our hardware-based lag tester, which also lets you test multiple parts of the screen. This is the very same device used to tune XG2431, and the very same device that discovered QFT benefits that YouTubers haven't discovered yet.

[Image: blur-busters-display-tester-614x740.jpg]

In my software, you are forced to measure top/center/bottom before validated lag results are displayed, as well as some calculated scanout information.
(BTW, my tester is VRR compatible too).

While VRR is already a natural QFT-included, since VRR uses a resizeable blanking interval, so if you can use capped VRR, it's an easier lag reduction than using QFT (e.g. 60fps cap at 240Hz VRR, for emulator use). However, QFT is quite handy when you can't do VRR (because of the source side like Intel GPU, or because of display side, or because of a display mode you want to use that doesn't support VRR). QFT is essentially a fixed-Hz equivalent of doing a perfectly perma-capped VRR, since the signal structure is quite similar, and thus has many use cases.

Also, I want to add more use cases I forgot to add:
-- Some signal sources can only do 60Hz or 120Hz, and some of those honor EDID information (interestingly), which leads to some "interesting" EDID hacking opportunities.
-- People who still use 3D mode, benefit hugely from 120Hz QFT too (thousands of us use VorpX today as a sequel to NVIDIA 3D Vision), since 240Hz+ panels are pretty 3D-friendly. With software-based BFI, 240Hz OLEDs will probably be fantastic 3D-glasses panels for those current open source VorpX fans too.
-- People who want to run fixed-Hz 60Hz at the lowest possible latency on a GPU that does not support VRR. 240Hz panels with QFT 60Hz works perfectly fine on Intel GPUs, and creates lag reductions on the majority of 240Hz panels, and stutters less in many emulators than 120Hz-240Hz
-- Etc. (this is all in addition to all the stuff I already wrote earlier). Some niche, some mass market.

While LCD-based QFT non-strobed VSYNC OFF may not benefit the max-Hz player as much as anybody who needs to use a refresh rate below max Hz, this simply shows how a gigantically large number of displays are not horizontal scanrate multisync, as evidenced from their sudden buffering behavior that enables when running at refresh rates below max Hz for any reason.

TL;DR: QFT has latency reductions on many thousands more LCD displays than you think, even for VSYNC OFF. It just needs to be made much more user friendly (plug-and-play automations), and your Vertical Total Calculator made this experimentation a hell lot easier, creating a boom of mini QFT experimentations unbeknownst to you...

People like you, reviewers, professionals, YouTubers, don't know this well because this is territory we are exploring more aggressively than anyone else at this time. So Blur Busters is leaping increasingly into the QFT-education role now;

So I reiterate: I think you underestimate / underrate QFT severely... Because so little of this has been discovered by youtubers/reviewers (yet).

Thanks,
Mark Rejhon
Owner of BlurBusters.com and TestUFO.com
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11-22-2022, 10:32 PM (Last edited: 11-22-2022, 10:33 PM by ToastyX)
Post: #7068
RE: Custom Resolution Utility (CRU)
(11-22-2022 08:52 PM)Firsh Wrote:  Yes only 1 at a time I'm aware of that limitation. The MST HUB is just there to let me toggle between the two instead of physically dis/connecting the cables daily.

Monitor at 4K60 DP is my daily driver. I just tried with the same cable I use for the TV and it also gets limited to 30Hz. So DP -> Club3D CSV-7220 -> HDMI -> either TV or Monitor: locked to 30Hz.

Attached the file. Could the TV's reporting "get lost" because of the active adapter? If it's incorrect, can the EDID be customized?
The TV is reporting HDMI 1.4 only with a 300 MHz pixel clock limit. I don't think the adapter is doing that. According to the TV's manual, "Settings > General settings > HDMI Ultra HD" needs to be set to "Optimal" to support HDMI 2.x, and the setting is separate for each HDMI port on the TV.

The monitor should support 3840x2160 @ 60 Hz with HDMI without any changes. Can you attach the EDID for the monitor as well?
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11-23-2022, 02:50 AM (Last edited: 11-23-2022, 03:19 AM by mdrejhon)
Post: #7069
RE: Custom Resolution Utility (CRU)
BTW, we're considering dual-model releasing our tester.

-- Open source schematic for people who want to DIY build.
-- Sell preassembled unit for people who want to use a certified/licensed branded unit, with full support.

I welcome comments about what you'd love to see in the tester. Profiles will be configurable to make it emulate most historic VSYNC ON and VSYNC OFF lag testers too (e.g. SMTT, Leo Bodnar, etc), including things like what sync technology testers by specific reviewers use and configurable GtG% cutoff thresholds that are differently standardized between different websites, and whether port transceiver lag is included or not.

Our Tester Shall Not Be A Black Box (pun!)
(Mine display so much statistics, enough to reverse engineer ANY lag tester you already own, in mere minutes)
Basically a universal lag tester that supports all past lag test standards plus new better one.

(....cue oblogatory xkcd...)

[Image: standards.png]

But for good reason.

I support all retroactively the past lag test standards, for commonalty between publishing numbers that are backwards compatible with their existing lag tests, and a much better expanded detailed statistics (in perhaps the "Blur Busters" test profile that will be perhaps pushed in green color, unlike the other profiles in red color, possibly). You can be damn sure I will pimp the UX accordingly: I will be encouraging/pushing reviewer honesty and disclosure in all kind of gimmicks including text color (nicer/comfort color), explainers, disclaimers (attached to other profiles), and so on, to aggressively discourage reviewers from publishing too little information.

Mandatory test parameter disclosure that reviewer-shames more publication of more lag data.

People have been releasing open source Arduino testers for years, but I've added some secret goodies (to be announced) never found in any tester, AND slapping the Blur Busters brand name on one to blow up the profile of the mediocrity of existing lag testing.

Being the Influencer of Reviewers, over 500 content creators with >100M total subs use at least one of our test inventions (e.g. RTINGS 9M viewsers per month, LinusTechTips 14M subs, to name only 2 out of 500 -- a shortlist of users of only ONE of my inventions at blurbusters.com/reviewers-using-pursuit-camera ), we all need to ram a lag test revolution through as hard as possible. No indie name will be able to popularize "just an Arduino tester" as well as we will be able to with our sheer network of reviewer contacts. And with my brain's wealth of latency knowledge and access to thousands of displays. The pandemic delayed things badly and Blur Busters 100% absolutely refuse to be a Failed Kickstarter, so we launch when ready, and only when we feel we can revolutionize reviewer latency testing.

Building on Blur Busters' philosophy of free tests, that's why I like the dual model (open source), with an optional buy-the-packaged-product (if you want to support Blur Busters).

Reviewers follows Blur Busters very closely, and they treat Blur Busters word like gold. Sure, many won't follow along, but many will. Blur Busters does not release a new display temporals testing invention often (motion/lag/gtg/mprt/whatever), but when I invent one that is Blur Busters worthy, many follow suit.

But that's why I say I know what we are talking about, and our tester software has a planned QFT-support check feature. Any-rez, any-Hz, any-synctech, any-VRR. And that why I claim that QFT has been severely underadvertised and benefits consistently underestimated.

Email me mark[at]blurbusters.com with your feedback. Been collecting for a while.

</microphone direction=drop speed=slamdunk>

Thanks,
Mark Rejhon
Owner of BlurBusters.com and TestUFO.com
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11-23-2022, 04:28 PM (Last edited: 11-23-2022, 04:31 PM by Firsh)
Post: #7070
RE: Custom Resolution Utility (CRU)
(11-22-2022 10:32 PM)ToastyX Wrote:  The TV is reporting HDMI 1.4 only with a 300 MHz pixel clock limit. I don't think the adapter is doing that. According to the TV's manual, "Settings > General settings > HDMI Ultra HD" needs to be set to "Optimal" to support HDMI 2.x, and the setting is separate for each HDMI port on the TV.

The monitor should support 3840x2160 @ 60 Hz with HDMI without any changes. Can you attach the EDID for the monitor as well?

How can I be so dumb, now when set to Optimal, 60Hz came back (although I did need to restart the PC and re-power the Club3D device and create the custom res in AMD software). Perhaps it has a "lasting memory" that persists for a power cycle and doesn't re-detect capabilities of displays.

It used to be on Optimal but perhaps at power outages, software updates, it tends to "forget" it - also it could have been me when trying different ports, as all start with Standard.

Here is EDID of the TV after the Optimal setting (it works fine).

Out of curiosity I did try with the same cable to plug into the monitor, and that is limited to 30 Hz as well. AMD custom res was needed to create the setting in the dropdown but it just stays black after activating 60 Hz. I forgot to export the EDID and just changed the cables back but if you are still interested I can try again. In the end that doesn't matter, I use DP for monitors and HDMI for TVs and would like to keep things that way especially whenever I get a new VGA that has like 2x HDMI2.1 and 3x DP. Cool

Thank you for all the help, you have been most useful, can't believe you even checked my TV's manual! Heart


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.bin  philips-tv-optimal.bin (Size: 256 bytes / Downloads: 8)
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